What does homelessness mean for women? How do we empower survivors of domestic abuse? As the international 16 Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence campaign comes to an end this month, Bethany and Katelin, two incredible young women who have been supported by Centrepoint, have an in-depth conversation with our host: Policy and Research Assistant Franki, about what it’s like to be in their shoes and homeless.
Along with Martha Schofield, Research Officer for Shelter and Francesca Lorenzo-George, Housing First Project Worker for Solace Women's Aid, they discuss the findings of Centrepoint’s latest research report: In Her Shoes and what needs to be done to support and secure young women’s futures.
What does homelessness mean for women? How do we empower survivors of domestic abuse? As the international 16 Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence campaign comes to an end this month, Bethany and Katelin, two incredible young women who have been supported by Centrepoint, have an in-depth conversation with our host: Policy and Research Assistant Franki, about what it’s like to be in their shoes and homeless.
Along with Martha Schofield, Research Officer for Shelter and Francesca Lorenzo-George, Housing First Project Worker for Solace Women's Aid, they discuss the findings of Centrepoint’s latest research report: In Her Shoes and what needs to be done to support and secure young women’s futures.
The podcast from centre by young people for all people. Centerpoint is the UK is leading youth homelessness charity. At centre point, we believe no young person's life should be defined by homelessness. We give young people the support they need to heal and grow no matter what. for over 50 years, we've been the centre point for change, personal and political. Everyone has their part to play. With young people leading the way. This podcast has been created by young people with lived experience of homelessness will be shining a spotlight on some of the issues that affect us. We hope to challenge and change some of the stereotypes and bring others with us as part of the movement to end youth homelessness for good. Welcome to point made the centre point podcast by young people for old people. I'm Frankie And I'm a policy and research assistant with centre point. Last year more than 46,000 young women aged 16 to 24 presented to their local authority as they were homeless or at risk of homelessness. We know that the main drivers and experiences of support for homelessness can be different for young women. However, these specific experiences are often overlooked. To address this Centerpoint is launching a new report called in her shoes, which explores the homelessness and housing experiences of young women using in depth qualitative interviews with young women and key stakeholders. In today's episode of point made, we'll be talking about the issues faced by young women experiencing homelessness in the UK, and what can be done to support them effectively. But before we get started, I'd like to introduce our panel. Starting on my left, my name is Caitlin I currently live in centre points Independent Living scheme. I'm Bethany, I'm a former resident of centerpoint. And but I now live independently. And Fran, I work for the housing first team at solace. And I Marfa and I work at shelter in the research team. And I'm going to speak about our report that went out last year, called fobbed off that looked at women's experiences of housing and homelessness. Great. Thanks, everyone. So to start off, I just like to ask Caitlyn. Firstly, how do you think young women experience homelessness differently to young men? And I think automatically when people think of homelessness, they don't automatically think about women. I think it's kind of a known, it's more of an a male image. I think homelessness for women is just a bit more vulnerable. I think women in general feel more vulnerable. I think being homeless just adds that, that extra bit on top of it. I think a big thing as well, like homeless people who are working as well, like women get paid less than men, which I think is very obvious and known. So I think in that ways, it does impact women as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's men earn about 8% more than women in work. But at the moment in the UK, it's ridiculous. And is that something that you found as well, Bethany? I think personally, in my experience, like, so being a mother, I think a lot of the time, it might be perceived that maybe women tend to be more favoured and receive more help. In terms of in that situation, but I think there are still a lot of risks and a lot of like the temporary accommodations, and still a lot of risk in the accommodation where women live. So they can still experience that isolation, the dislikes, a lot of the similar issues that men face. So it's, I guess, at times it could be a bit more hidden and like not as visible as men, because I guess they won't be on the streets, but when we inside places, and it will be something that is just not seen, or maybe spoken about as much. Absolutely, yeah. That kind of hidden. Homelessness is definitely something that's more common for women, it seems. And I suppose what you're saying about the if you do have those kinds of accommodations with your child and things like that, it's like if you're lucky enough to get an accommodation that's suited to you in that way as well. Yeah, no, I've just wanted to pick up on that because I think everything that you've been saying is exactly what we have seen through the fobbed off research that I mentioned, but also shelter more widely the support that we do women experiencing or suffering through the housing emergency. So you mentioned about temporary accommodation. We know that women are disproportionately stuck homeless in TA. So six and 10 Homeless adults living in TA in England are women. That's about 70 over 74,000 women despite only making up half the general population. We've touched on you know, being more vulnerable. We know that domestic abuse is a near universal experience for women who book I'm homeless. And I think it's important when we're talking about young, young people and young women, we need to remember that a lot of them will be parents, you know, as he spoke about in your own experience, so that's looking after yourself, but also your children as well when you're going through that homelessness experience. And another thing I just wanted to mention was around living in a space that is harming your mental your physical health. So we know that one in four single women with children live in a home that's harming either their mental health, or their physical health, which is actually two times higher than for any other households. So there's some real key issues that we're seeing for women and knowing that they are disproportionately affected in those ways. And like you said, housing and affordability, there are issues with that with all genders, but with the income disparities that we see for women, we know that that's just making things even harder, women are more likely to claim benefits, so freezes to lmha rates over the years, they're going to be hitting women harder. So that's some of the things that we're really concerned about. Absolutely. Yeah. I think from my point of view, often women aren't listened to, or not believed there's gatekeeping of services within housing, and kind of attitude of prove it. Like if you say you've been through domestic abuse, they weren't police reports, but actually, legally, that you don't have to report to the police, you just have to turn up and explain what's going on. So I think also, like you mentioned, hidden homelessness, women are more likely to be sofa surfing, they're more likely to be sex working for somebody to sleep. And they're more likely to be facing multiple disadvantage, particularly women with no recourse to public funds. Definitely. And when there's that intersection, it just makes everything so much harder. Absolutely. And we know that despite the large number of women experiencing homelessness, there is a significant lack of women's specific homelessness services in England, with only 10% of services providing female only accommodation. Martha, what do you think about the housing options that are available for young women? Yeah, so we, as part of our research, we spoke with women were our peer researchers who had their own lived experiences of the housing emergency went out and spoke to women in Birmingham, Bristol, and Sheffield. And we heard time and time again about the dissatisfaction with the housing options available to women. So a real lack of suitable accommodation, whether that's housing that's miles from your children's school, or it's poorly connected to transport or the transport that it's connected to is actually really expensive. And that stops you getting round. Or the housing that you're being offered is in an area that you think is dangerous, and you wouldn't want to live there yourself. And I think the real issue here around this lack of options is due to the serious lack of social housing that we have. So we've got 1.2 million households in England on waiting list for social housing. And last year, excuse me, just over 6000 Social homes were built. So you can see that without social housing, people are just stuck in this constant struggle to keep a roof over their heads. Homeownership is just out of reach for most people. And private renting is just notoriously expensive, no matter what age and gender you are so and that was something that the women told us that we worked with is that you know the vast majority of them were suffering with their finances having a difficult time trying to manage everything and like I said, freezes the LH A and the benefit cap are leaving women really struggling to cover those housing costs. Yep, absolutely. And on that kind of the qualities of the housing that there is as well is that an issue that you guys had particularly Bethany Bethany, you're saying you moved into independent accommodation? Was it quite difficult to kind of find somewhere that was affordable or that was suitable for what you wanted? So they at the moment, so I am living in like a council property and you have like for my experience like it is something that is good but the build up towards that was something like I would say that I would say that the properties that I got work good before that, like the temporary accommodation they were okay. But I would say but it's just the lot of instability so a lot of moving around. Like my son was five and I think we were moving like almost every year of his life and he's just constantly moving constantly finding nurseries constantly you know, like because and it's really disruptive for me personally as well because throughout that time I was also in education as well so he's like I'm doing my A levels but then I'm moving to like different houses in different barbers and I don't think there is that much consideration to like you know, you have your own life is not just every I think there's an assumption that every kind of like young mom is kind of like her maybe has insecure employment or insecure like I actually do my A levels and do trying to like get into uni, but in the end did work out. But I think just a lot of that insecurity in terms of always moving somewhere, was not helpful at all. Like it was one of those things where it's like, I know it could have been avoided by just really taking into account like your your education. And it's not like you're just not doing anything. It was kind of like you're being treated as the same as everyone else. But when you're in education, you really need that stability. Because it's so your route, it's really likely that you can drop out easily if you're not like resilient enough to kind of keep going with that. Yeah, definitely. And they should be kind of supporting you to carry on with that and was appointed when you were having to travel quite far to keep up with your A levels, or are you trying to move? Yeah, I guess it was more that I will be told like, oh, say I was going to sixth form in Lewisham. And they'll be like, Oh, we found a place in Korea. And then I said that that's not suitable at all. And it's like, I don't want to live there not based on like, quality or whatever it is, like what other people might be saying, it's literally like out that means I would literally need to stop going to sixth form. And six forms cannot like just you're doing your A levels you already started. They can't just take an like take you in another sixth form. So I think it's more just like a just a lack of, like consideration to like what you have going on. There was just no consideration to that. And you kind of had to always play. Yeah, no, I think that that that's exactly why the report that we wrote is called fobbed off, because so many of the women that we spoke to with the research, we just felt that when they were going when we're talking about what housing options are available, let's think about the support the places that people are going to to learn about those housing options and get that help to get into a safe, secure home. And so much of the time, people were finding that they were being fobbed off, they were being spoken to rudely by professionals who was supposed to be there to help them. You know, they were in the worst cases re traumatised, you know, by professionals that should have helped them, you know, some of the stories that we heard was so shocking about people being told about their perpetrator. Oh, well, you know, it's your fault for being so obviously, gay, the police said this to one of the women that we spoke to, you know, if he hasn't killed you by now, then he's not going to do it today is the you know, these are really like shocking stories that we're hearing about the way that people are being spoken to, when they're going to places for help. And you know, you have a right to live where you want to live and study and stay stay, you know, it's kept in with your studies. So we need to make sure that people are treated in a way that helps them to keep that safe, secure home above their head. Exactly. It's exactly what Fran was saying earlier about women just not being taken seriously. I think as well. There's a real need for frontline staff in housing and police as well to be given training to have a mandatory training. Because these stories are not unique. They happen every single day and housing departments because there's not enough social housing. So services are literally gate kept. I had a woman who went into a local authority with a Merak housing letter, which means her case is high risk domestic abuse, with two children under three, and she was turned away. And that sort of thing happens every single day. So it's not just about funding, it's about costs. So they will try and house you in the outskirts of London because it's cheaper. But then what if you are studying and you can't afford the fares or you can't afford the fare to take your children to the school where they've got a bit of security that they used to. So children are having their education disrupted constantly changing schools constantly, which affects the education, but also they're often in substandard housing, which also affects their life chances. So you know, it's a direct impact of everything on women and their children, often, and this and some of the shoddy accommodation that's damp and mouldy. And if you complain about it, then you're served with a notice to quit so that you're like someone else will live there. And then you're moving again. So everyone really deserves a safe space to live. Yeah. Can I just add to that she because I think what I found quite two minutes was really hilarious to me was that you'd like is like they're trying to make you dependent on them that you're trying to improve your life so that you can be independent and not use the services. Because by like being education and like actually, or your children going to school, or even like some people say like, in temporary accommodation, they'll be trying to work, but they can't really work because it's too expensive. And you're trying to be independent, but the way that it's all set up is like keeping you more dependent on the services, which I've always just found, like, so crazy and so confusing. And it's like, who's setting it up like this, who's making it like this? Because when people are trying to move away from it, but they actually stopped like physically and can't actually get themselves out of the situation. I think also it locks people into a cycle of poverty quite often. That's the main the main thing I think, is that there's no way out if there's not enough social housing to go around that is actually affordable. You get people in temporary condition for between two and five years. And in that time, like you said, they constantly moving. Yeah, I mean, from a personal perspective, I lived in a hostel for just over two years. And when it came to me moving out, the cancelled didn't bother. They were literally like a case, unless you show up with your bags, and you've got nowhere else to go, we can't help you. And it was sort of the thing. Well, if I do show up with my bags, you're just kind of put me into another a temporary accommodation for another two years. And it's a similar thing with the affordability at one point, I was working two jobs seven days a week to afford to pay these prices for a hostel for accommodation that was not adequate at all. And I was paying ridiculous overworking myself a summer where I didn't feel safe. And I wasn't happy, like you say, is just such a repetitive cycle. And there's not it doesn't end there's not like an endpoint like even now I live in a centre point. Service. So I'm still not at my endpoint yet. Like I still don't have a permanent home forever. And is that that point? Like? When does it stop for young people? You know? Yeah, that lack of moving options is really so difficult. And you mentioned about feeling unsafe in the accommodation that you were staying in. Can you tell me a bit more about that? Yeah, so I lived in, I would say a large scale hostel, but I know that it's bigger out there. So there was about 1819 residents in my accommodation. It was about three floors, you had your own bedroom, shared bathroom and kitchen. Majority of the people I shared kitchen with were men. And there was a lot of violence in the hospital that I lived in. Obviously, we can't. There's this big, big reputation, that hostels are violent, and it's not a nice place. But you do create kind of a family network at the same time. I mean, you don't really have a choice, because you live with these people, you share everything with them. But I think from my perspective, as young person, I was 17 When I first moved into the hostel, and I came from a family breakdown as well. So I had no, barely any support really just like a close friends. It was just awful. And the staff had no consideration for the fact that I was young and I had to share a bathroom with like five men who were much older than me. And there was a lot of drug misuse and building. The rules were so ridiculous, you strict that you couldn't have visitors at certain times because of antisocial behaviour. You had to they had a curfew at one point like, as a young person that that's not home, that's literally just a roof over your head. And when you're paying extortionate amount you would expect better. You'd expect to be able to call that place home, but it was not like that. Yeah, sounds really isolating. Yeah, it was awful. I mean, I lived in that area, which I knew which I was very lucky in that sense. They didn't send me far away like I knew my area. But in that sense, it's still just as isolated. So I could never imagine how I stately must feel in the area that you don't know. Yeah, I think the to shine a light on the experience of of young women stuck in temporary accommodation, as well like it your story is reminding me of someone called or call Sarah, who worked with shelter. And she was in her early 20s. And she was stuck in temporary accommodation with her two year old and four year old sons. And she, I mean, she was stuck in the room with a shared kitchen and a shared bathroom. But one time she you know, she'd have to put kids to bed early, they're really young. And then she has to sit in a room in the dark whilst her kids are sleeping, she can't, she can't go out, she can't get a babysitter who's going to come and babysit in a room where it's, you know, sitting in the dark room with your kids. And one time she went to the toilet and came back and there was a man having a mental health crisis in the room with her children. So by that point, she decides I'm not even going to go to the toilets anymore. She's having to use a bucket. You know, these, she was there for 15 months. Like that's the this is what people suck in temporary accommodation and living through. That's what women are going through. And let's bear in mind as well, that history of domestic abuse, which is common in lots of women's homeless women's stories, and then they're surrounded by men in a in a in a space where they're not getting that support you that's a really dangerous environment, where really she should be going to getting some getting some support and also some safety away from the perpetrator. But that's not an environment where she's going to recover. I think that's not an uncommon story. For every refuge space, there's between three and six referrals. So and domestic abuse services Miss 50% of the cause they go to voicemail. So there's just not enough funding put into those services. First of all, but like you pointed out a lot of the time if families are put into a hotel or hostel accommodation, they could be sharing with men and families and some of the men have just come out of prison some of them like they have drug and alcohol issues or mental health issues. And it just puts them at further risk often. So if there's not the refuge spaces available, that should other option which can reach home ties you and your children are not necessarily safe either. Definitely. And all these reasons are why we're calling for local authorities and dealhack to allocate more funding for specific provision, including women only, and more refuge spaces and LGBTQ plus services. Because we know that people who might identify as non binary don't really fit in either women or men services and might not feel comfortable. So yeah, definitely need to accommodate for everyone's kind of individual needs. So you were talking a bit about domestic violence, I just wanted to out. I just wanted to highlight that last Friday was the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against women. And we found that in the centre point databank that there are five times as many young women who lost their last accommodation due to domestic violence in England in 2021. So I just wanted to ask Francesca, how do you think we can best empower young women who are survivors of domestic abuse? I think it's a holistic approach that's needed, I think, quite often. Just the impact of domestic abuse without even being a young person can affect your self esteem and your confidence, I think there's work to do around that. But also, you know, support with accessing services, accessing benefits, accessing work and training, and work experience, but also, making them safe. And often, that really is sometimes feels like putting on a coat of armour every day and battling with housing, with police, with Children's Services with adult social care because of how they operate. And so you have to really fight for young women, and you have to teach them to fight for themselves. And that really comes with education and knowledge. If you've got some knowledge of what's priority need. What's vulnerability with regards to housing, I think we really need to equip women with the tools to be able to fight for themselves, but in the meantime, advocate for them, and lobby for more funding where it's needed, because these young women are bringing up the future generation, and they're directly impacted by the policies that are constantly being passed, and their life chances and those of their children are constantly affected by these. Yeah, absolutely. And we're definitely calling for more awareness of kind of like what support there is for people who are experiencing domestic violence, because some people will kind of only think of the police and they might not have a great opinion of the police and domestic violence as well. So sometimes it feels like there's not really any any options there. Martha, I know you were saying a bit about women being impacted by the benefit cap. And I read a bit in your research about that affecting domestic abuse survivors as well. Yeah, so the benefit cap it disproportionately well, it penalises survivors of domestic abuse, because oftentimes, they're they're moving from an M work to an out of work household, and so they're subject to the cap. So it's making financial situation that's already difficult, even harder for women. And just around empowering our survivors, survivors of domestic abuse, I think what we would be really advocating for, and it's what the women that we that we spoke to the peer researchers that we did, the fobbed off research with really felt strongly is that we need support services that are women's centred and are trauma informed, as well. So we avoid some of these negative experiences with support services that we've spoken about, you know, really tackling this culture of disbelief that you touched upon, you know, is supposed to be innocent, till proven guilty. But and there's, we've seen the opposite of that people are disbelieved, they're not trusted. And what does that do to you as a person when you're going there and being so vulnerable and telling your story? You know, it's not, it's not good. And, and we know that and you touched on this at the start around. When people think of homelessness, we traditionally you know, it's dominated by the experiences of male rough sleepers. And so often services can be tailored more towards men's needs. And evidence suggests that women do less well in services that are predominantly working with men. And that's another reason why we really need to think about what are the experiences that we've covered today? And how can we tailor our support to better help women and women centred, I think really key to that is that we are providing opportunities that bring other women together, to share their stories to learn from one another, whether that's peer support networks and groups, you know, peer research opportunities, ways for people and women with lived experience to share their story and be heavily involved in the design of a service or the delivery of a service so they can share that what they know about what's going on and if you miss those voices, then the service is going to it's not going to be as helpful to the people that you're supposed to be helping. Also I think because hostels are male dominated, often women are targeted and then they suffer further or exploitation or abuse from men within those hospitals, sometimes just as simple as financial abuse. I think what there is a real need for and some Secretary schools are doing this is to do workshops around consent and what a healthy relationship looks like. Because often, young women actually don't know those things. And that's when they sometimes get into these types of relationships, because they don't recognise the early flags that might be pointed towards a potentially abusive relationship. Can I just say the point on like, financial abuse, because I think that is like another one that is not really spoken about as much. And I think there was something that was quite interesting, actually, because I did have a friend and she went through some visuals dating somebody, and she, I think everyone was going okay, but then she might have given him some type of money to save for her. And then he refused to like that. And they got into like, a small disagreement, and he refused to give it back. And they tried to report it to the police. And then she didn't really feel as if she was being abused in any way. But they were like, Okay, this is a dummy. They were like, they labelled it like this is the base case. So we have to treat it as that. But all she was just trying to do was just trying to get her money back. And I think in terms of this, they were like, well, we're going to treat as a domestic abuse cases that okay. She was like, well, in what way? Can I get my money back? And they said, Well, you got to go through the Civil Court. And then she said, so. So then in the end, what happened to her was, she had a child. So it actually ended up being more like targeting her being a mom and like social services getting involved. And she was like, well, if we're going to treat this as domestic abuse case, and I'm a victim, I'm a victim of this, then kind of get my money back. It was on about that. And then they were like, No, we can't get your money back. But you're a victim. And it was like, it was going round in circles. And it was like, and even to this point, I know that she hasn't got her money back. And yeah, it just got down to the point where you know, like social services came in, they were like, Oh, well, there's not an issue with the child because you were dating this person, they were not involved with you and your child, it was just like, you get you trusted someone and they didn't give your funds back. So I think also as well, it's like, there could be that thing where it's not believed. But also you're kind of labelled as that when you're looking for some other different type of support, but they put a label on you that you have was not trying to ask in the first place, which I found quite just worrying and concerning at times. Yes. So I say the police actually need some training as well. But also what happens very often is women leave their homes, the perpetrator may still be in that home, children's services would give her a whole list of things she needs to do in order to keep her children safe. And he may be offered a perpetrator programme may not, but he can choose whether to interact with children's services or not. So it's almost like women are being punished for something that isn't there for. Yeah. And as soon as you mentioned Children's Services, why there was even a need for Children's Services in that scenario, I don't know. But maybe there was a person who didn't live there. The person had never been interacted with a child, but it was like, and I think it's just yeah, it's always that there's like, if you report it, it's like, oh, now this is a whole nother like job that you have to do. And you have to be insurance stuff and, and then but they will like refuse not to actually help you and actually like contact that person and actually help you just get anything back from the situation. So yeah, it's hard. And it's that fear as well. Even if it's before you get to that point. It's like the fear of, of children's services, what's going to happen to my kids, maybe it stops, you know, some of the one of the stories in the women that we split work that we did the research with, you know, it was only because her child said at school unfreezing to the teachers that they've thought hold and say what's going on here. But the mother was like, I don't want to, I'm so scared. If I lost my children, I don't want to come forward. And there is that fear that fear is really real for a lot of women, young women as well. Definitely. And it should be kind of there to support you not kind of they're seen as something scary that's going to penalise you or anything like that. Fran, what you were saying about kind of educating young woman's kind of noticed these red flags earlier, this is something that the government's implemented very recently. So it's now changed from PSHE to RSC, which is a lot more relationships focused. So hopefully, kind of women of the future generations will be able to spot these red flags a lot sooner. But also at Centerpoint. We have healthy relationships, workers, who I interviewed for the research as well, who has kind of run like seminars for groups of people and then also on a one to one basis to speak to young women and men and kind of speak to them about their relationships and kind of evaluate whether whether it's truly healthy and if there's anything that's, you know, they could be doing better themselves or even or the other person you know. I don't know if either of you ever spoke to them. No Okay, well, they're really lovely, we'd recommend, because I'm moving on to kind of the last section here. Recently, the government announced that in the autumn budget, they plan to support people on Universal Credit to kind of increase their hours or their earnings. But as we know, there can be many different barriers in the way, especially for vulnerable young women. So, Bethany, I just wanted to ask you, what do you think that we can do to ensure young women are able to pursue their goals and find employment while pursuing while they're experiencing homelessness? I think this is a very interesting question, because I'm currently going through not going through anything crazy, but just going through like a bit of a funny situation of Universal Credit. Because I think I was telling you guys about the assumption that all mothers are kind of maybe not in education or not doing that. So. And I actually know so many other mums in university and doing so like doing that stuff. But I think from that assumption, there isn't really any written down, like policies around what it's like, what it's actually like being a mom and an education and the things, the requirements that you need to do and the requirements that you're not supposed to do. And the results are very different. Because someone say, I'm getting Universal Credit. And I'm in uni, some said, I've been completely eradicated from Universal Credit. They said, No, some say, Oh, I'm eligible, but like only for my housing costs. And, and that is quite weird to me that why everyone's getting different results. And like, I would be getting something but then a friend who's got twins would be getting nothing, and it's not making any sense to me. So I think there needs to be more like written down policies around what we're entitled to. Because that leads like, some type of I guess, discretion from like, like different barbers and different like, work coaches, to decide when it really shouldn't be them deciding it should be coming from like the top down and actually deciding, okay, this is the support that we have for them. And, and I don't know whether there's like a refusal to decide what is we're entitled to, but yeah, but they seem to know everything about when you're supposed to be looking for work, and what age your child and all this stuff, but they can't tell you anything about the amount you're entitled to. If you're at uni, and I just find it a bit weird. So yeah, allowing you to choose what kind of job that you want to do. It's just kind of like get whatever's available than already helping you to get the education that you really want to get the job that you really want. Yeah, because you can't, I think it's weird. It's like, you're on Universal Credit, but you can't work if you're an education, because all your childcare goes on, you've been able to study and like I studied quite an intense course. So there isn't any time to work. In fact, there isn't really any time to do anything. So like they and I think they do know that. So it's kind of like, but they're but they'll tell you about Universal Credit is it's an active and working benefit. But we can't work but we're entitled to it says so like, it's just run random run in circles and the work coaches don't even know what what to do. Because every time I I interact with them, it's something different. So yeah, it sounds a bit like that. Gatekeeping again, as well, people were being told different things from different. I feel like the benefit system has changed from what's meant to be a support support process to a punitive measure. And I think that, you know, forcing people into low paid jobs or zero hours contracts, is going to make more people homeless for one. And also there's, you know, if someone is trying to improve their life by doing volunteer work, or going into education, or getting some work experience that shouldn't go against them, but it quite often will. So I think and also childcare like, you know, how are we how are you going to expect people to work longer hours if there's no childcare available for them. And there's not enough childcare places for women to put their kids. As far as I know, there's no such thing as weekend childcare. So you'll be the week they is all you can use to go in education. And I think it's not impossible to work part time and be in education and have a child but it's not possible in terms of the childcare provision, there isn't enough of it to and it's just expensive, like it's just not even worth because you will probably your whole salary will probably go in and then you'll have nothing left. So yeah, they don't. They're not taking that into account a lot of the time and yeah, it just leaves you to kind of either get confused or just struggle on like tackling with them what you should what you need at the time. One person I spoke to for the research was saying it was quite it kind of put them off even trying to go into education, if they're like, I'm worried I'm gonna lose my benefits and they had quite low self esteem and didn't really, you know, they weren't confident enough to fully back themselves to fight for it. So having that prospect of losing a lot of money was too scary to kind of, you know, fight and choose to try to get education anyway. So yeah, it's really sad situation. Caitlin, I know that you're at university at the moment is that? Do you feel that you're supported enough? Do you think that financially that you've managed okay? I think financially I manage, okay. I mean, I don't claim Universal Credit or anything, I was basically not entitled. I mean, I have a very good supportive network. Shouldn't finance has been quite supportive, surprisingly. So I get maximum student finance. And so I've been managing fine, but I know previously, I used to claim housing benefit when I lived in my hostel. And it was awful, because I had a zero hours contract, so you had to submit payslips every four weeks. And then they'd say, Okay, you owe this amount, because you sent this amount this week, but we owe this amount. And in the end, I decided to work two jobs. So I didn't have to claim benefits because it was more stress and what it was worth, and I found myself getting into arrears and but now, I'm lucky enough where I'm quite financially in a good position to not need to claim anything. Yeah, that's great. And there, you have had that support to get there definitely. I think for a lot of young women, especially with children who don't have maybe an extended family have a good support network, they're literally living hand to mouth and going without food to feed their children, you know, having to go to food banks and having to try and find money for clothes and shoes for their children when it's just living in such a basic amount of money. And I think the media feeds into this kind of stigma about young single moms and also people who claim benefits, you know, scroungers, this and scroungers that. And so then it's almost like you're going into a hostile environment already just to claim benefits. And then you might get sanctioned. If you can't make an appointment, or, you know, you're already getting as a young person, much less money than a person over 25 would be getting. And yet you're supposed to survive on that somehow with the cost of living crisis, with Universal Credit not covering Housing Benefit housing costs, the way that housing benefit used to. So a lot of people are dipping into their living Fund, in order to top up their rent to keep a roof over their heads. Yeah, I think what Caitlin was saying, I think, and I think it's quite sad, like what you were saying about someone feeling that going into education will make them worse off and actually like, I would really encourage like anyone in temporary accommodation, I think being an education is probably the best and only thing you can really do at that point, because it's like, at least you'll get a little bit more support and help from other services. Because it's been a lot more, it's just been a lot more easier that way. Because being on benefits is not like the best thing. But obviously education is not for everyone. But I would say like if the person can and they want to like they definitely should, because the support is a lot better. If you're in that situation. I also feel like education is the key to earning a decent amount of money and also to getting out of poverty, because otherwise you're just going to be locked in this cycle of poverty. And although it's really difficult and getting more difficult, I imagine. I feel like a young woman bringing up children, you're also providing a really good role model to your children. You know, they're seeing something different maybe to other young moms. So I think that whatever education you can go into, if that can equip you for a future, that's what you're building on, isn't it, obviously a future for you and your children? Sorry, but I think that coming from a personal perspective, when I lived in Tokyo accommodation, nothing was mentioned about education. If you asked me two years ago, where I would want to be able to I would done and what I would have said because it was never an option for me to get education or go to uni. Like I didn't have my own levels. I went straight to an apprenticeship like now I in five years time, well, probably less, I'm going to have a good stable career. But if you would have asked me that two years ago, I didn't know what I would have said because I was never told that education was an option. I was told you go to work, you claim housing benefit. That's that that's how it is. Yeah, that came up a lot in the research, just young women not aware of what choices that they had, what options were available and and the sport that's there to help them to do this, if that's what they want to do. But also I think what brings young women into homelessness is often unsafe environments, whether that's from parents when you're growing up, or whether it's from an abusive relationship. And so, sometimes it's just surviving. Sometimes you're just so used to just surviving, that you don't necessarily think about the wider picture and I feel that's where professionals can come in and support young women to have aspirations and to work towards them. And I think on that when you think about women in A group that have come from a difficult maybe abusive household, it's like being told to go out and work more isn't necessarily where they're going to be at physically, mentally, you know, they deserve time to process, being homeless, having come from an abusive environment, taking that time to recover from that, you know, just because you've left, maybe the police with the perpetrator doesn't mean the abuse and the effects of it stop, you know, we need to remember that. And I think it's also for the children as well, if you were to have children, Is it right that they need to be in nursery for eight hours a day, whilst you pick up more work, you know, maybe those children also deserve the right to have time with their parent their mom to process and recover from what they've been doing? Not all children will witness the abusive if but for those that have, you know, or becoming homeless, you know, so I think it's like, let's actually remember that, what people are going through that we're saying, Go out and increase your hours. And I think, you know, if we really want to help women to pursue their goals, then we need a system where they can afford to live where they want to live, live near to their former home, if that's where they'd like to be live near to their children's schools, or to their support networks. That's the that's the real way to help women to pursue their goals and fries. And so that means, you know, damaging welfare cuts, like scrapping the benefit cap, we need to do that immediately. That's disproportionately affecting them, we need to end the freeze on housing benefit. And ultimately, of course, we need more social housing that we've all said, because otherwise, there aren't those kinds of people to go to. So they're the key things. And then on top of that, I would just say, because it was such an important thing for us, when you know, the women that we work with for fobbed off, it's also about having that Women's Centre support available. So women feel better seen, they feel heard, they feel understood. And they can start building some of those support networks, those peer networks as well to get them through those experiences of homelessness. Yeah, exactly what you were saying, like how you get your kind of family and you're in it together. And it's quite build up those relationships and kind of keeps you going. And I think by kind of offering that like holistic approach as well like, considering all those things, like the area, and like education, children, all those kinds of things, so important and other things as well. So things to do with like identity, you know, somebody is like LGBTQ, or has experiences of trauma and just want to be in certain areas or, you know, things like that need to be taken into consideration as well. Yeah, making sure that those services are inclusive taking an inclusive approach and that they're accessible. So people feel able to come to them, if they feel that's the service for them, that their specialist support, if they would like that specialist support, and also that the service thinks about, okay, well, when are they when they doing the school run? You know, let's like make sure that it's accessible in those ways to exactly exactly I think as well for young LGBTQ people. There's not really enough specific services for them. You've got the Albert Kennedy trashed, you've got Stonewall housing, you've got one LGBTQ night shelter in the whole of London. And I've heard from young LGBT people that they would rather be on the street than be in a hostile environment, because some of those hostile environments are so homophobic, and so transphobic that they're in danger within those environments. But I also think is about the design like for hostels, there are new hostels being built that have a communal area that's just for women, a bathroom area that's just for women. So it is possible to build these spaces, it may not be possible within existing hostels, because you know, some of them have their own room with maybe a shower poured in, but they don't all we really need to think about safety more for women. And we know that a lot of the times in temperate condition and in unsafe environments. Yeah, definitely. And just to kind of round everything off, I wanted to ask Caitlin and Bethany, what changes would you like to see in the future to support young women? Or kind of what would have made things easier for you guys, when when you were experiencing homelessness? I think female only hostels, I think, if that would have been offered to me from the get go. Wouldn't have question there. And I think like we've said, educating young women, I wasn't told about anything, I was given one option that was that you go that way. That's how it is. There was no Okay, what about the next step, the next step is never spoken about. And even when it is spoken about that, well, you're on your own now sort of thing. So I think providing more education for young women and female only hostels, I'd say would be the biggest things I would suggest. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I would definitely agree with Caitlyn because in my experience, I've been in just female only living spaces and it's made like a massive difference in terms of not feeling like unsafe at all times. You can feel unsafe and other reasons. But a lot of the time when that is included it often is because some type of male was involved or someone is trying to bring someone there but it's not as bad but I couldn't imagine living in a space where And already then you're fearing already the people in your home. And that's really difficult. So I would definitely like echo that and say like that is something that. Yeah, it should definitely be pushed for the forefront. Yeah. Yeah. How are you supposed to kind of focus on yourself when you feel unsafe when it all that's kind of going on around you? Safety Scobie? Number one, definitely. Cool. So yeah, I feel like we've had a really quite widespread conversation here. We've talked about quite a lot of like, the barriers in the way of, you know, young women getting the education, barriers to housing, and particularly domestic violence. All all quite. Yeah, quite a wide variety of things spoken about. But sadly, we have to bring the discussion to a close. And I just want to thank you all for, for being here and taking part in the research. And I hope that those watching and listening, enjoyed the discussion. And our research that's launching is called in her shoes, and it's about young women's experiences of homelessness. And it further highlights a lot of the issues that we've spoken about here today. And yeah, this podcast and research aims to be part of the discussion about improving and preventing homeless experiences for young women. And Centrepointe is keen to encourage others to be part of this dialogue. Thank you, everyone for taking part. Thanks for listening. If you want more information, then visit our blog at www.centerpointe.org/blog. Don't forget Centerpoint offers free advice via the centerpoint helpline to anyone aged 16 to 25. who is homeless or at risk of homelessness. Call us free on Oh 808-800-0661 We're open Monday to Friday 9am 5pm You can also leave us a message on our website at www.centerpointe.org.uk/youth homelessness slash get help now.