Did you know that with our current benefits system, young people in supported accommodation are often worse off when they work more hours? This month we discuss this issue and some of the solutions with a professional and varied panel.
Presenting the podcast this week are Daniel Williams from Centrepoint Partner charity SLEAP based in Lancashire, Catherine Geddes, a former Centrepoint resident and peer researcher.
On the Panel are: Daniel Demoulin, Head of Rough Sleeping Services at Depaul UK, Billy Harding, Policy and Research Manager at Centrepoint, Tom Freegard, Housing Officer at Centrepoint, Stephen Timms, MP for Eastham and Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee and Shannon PInk, a former Centrepoint resident.
Did you know that with our current benefits system, young people in supported accommodation are often worse off when they work more hours? This month we discuss this issue and some of the solutions with a professional and varied panel.
Presenting the podcast this week are Daniel Williams from Centrepoint Partner charity SLEAP based in Lancashire, Catherine Geddes, a former Centrepoint resident and peer researcher.
On the Panel are: Daniel Demoulin, Head of Rough Sleeping Services at Depaul UK, Billy Harding, Policy and Research Manager at Centrepoint, Tom Freegard, Housing Officer at Centrepoint, Stephen Timms, MP for Eastham and Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee and Shannon PInk, a former Centrepoint resident.
The podcast from centre by young people for all people. Centerpoint is the UK is leading youth homelessness charity. At centre point, we believe no young person's life should be defined by homelessness. We give young people the support they need to heal and grow no matter what. for over 50 years, we've been the centre point for change, personal and political. Everyone has their part to play. With young people leading the way. This podcast has been created by young people with lived experience of homelessness will be shining a spotlight on some of the issues that affect us. We hope to challenge and change some of the stereotypes and bring others with us as part of the movement to end youth homelessness for good. This episode has been recorded on Zoom, which may affect the quality of audio in places. Welcome to point made the new sound point podcast by young people for all people. I'm your host, Andy Williams, say we're going to talk about making work pay for young people in support and accommodation. So a little bit of background about yourself. I was street homeless when I was 14 for two years. And through that journey after I've grown my family, I went on to a support accommodation, which is called sleep which is the homeless young people service. And on that I found that when I was on the service, and that was trying to help me look for a job, when I was trying to find a job, then that money it would cost me to pay for the rent. For what I was earning, I would have found it really difficult. And since I'm extremely passionate about supporting young people, and trying to make the changes, help it easier for young people who are in a homeless situation. Hi, I'm Catherine abama Centerpointe resident and peer researcher. And today we'll be looking at making work pay for young people in supported housing to mark the day of social justice will be looking at this railroad eyes as lived experience of homelessness and supported housing. I think it's such an important topic to talk about as young people have been trapped into a poverty cycle, which isn't right when we should be looking at support and young people's aspirations and job opportunities as a root out of homelessness and being trapped in the benefit system, which I believe isn't fit for modern purpose and actually hinders rather than helps. We've got some really great speakers on the panel today. So I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. Hi, everyone. And um, yeah, thanks, Daniel, for having me on today. So my name is Billy Harding. I am the policy research manager here at Centerpoint. I think it's a really important discussion. I mean, it's such an important issue for so many of the young people we support the issue basically of how earnings affect their benefit entitlements and the situation that's going to lead them in. What we see a sense of point is I can really limit young people's employment opportunities, and even in some cases, put young people off kind of moving into work entirely, and ultimately really kind of makes the work that we do at Centerpoint to help young move young people into independence much more difficult. Hi, my name is Daniel Jamila. I work for DePaul, and I'm head of rough sleeping services. So DePaul is a young person's homelessness charity. And we work across the UK. We've also got lots of young people living in our projects who, because of the current system, because what we have to discuss today actually have to pay to work more hours, which which can't be white. Hello, yes, I'm Steven Chen. Thank you for inviting me. I'm the Member of Parliament for East Ham. And I'm the chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee in the House of Commons which scrutinises on behalf of Parliament, all the things that the DWP does. And I very much agree about the importance of this, it's obviously really important that young people are able to get into work for their own sakes, but also for the sakes of everybody else. And if we can avoid people having unnecessary problems and periods out of work at the start of their working lives, and that's a good thing for everybody. Hi, I'm Tom. I'm a support worker of work centre point since around 2006 in various kinds of roles. This has come up as an issue a lot over that period of time. So I'm yeah, thanks for inviting me. And I'm glad we were sitting here talking about it. Hi, everyone. My name is Shannon. I'm a former Senate president and now I live in independent living. So nice to meet you guys. So together, we will look at how the current system can act as a barrier to a young person seeking employment and moving on from homelessness and examine ways to improve that system for young people. First, I'd like to invite Billy harden to introduce the ideas behind the campaign to make work pay. Thanks, guys. I shouldn't say it's a really complicated issue, but I'll try my best to explain it as best as I can. Basically, just to set out what the problem is, you know, and why we think it's such an important issue that needs to be addressed for the young people that we support. So just as a bit of background, so for most young people living in supported accommodation, if they don't have any children or dependents, so they don't have any disabilities or health issues, which affect their ability to work, they'll be getting the standard allowance of Universal Credit, which is currently just over 257 pounds a month, or about 59 pound 40 a week. And for young people in supported accommodation as well, their housing costs, so their rent will still be supported through housing the housing benefit system, which is the old system. So for most people, housing benefits been replaced in recent years by Universal Credit, which has rolled most working age benefits into one monthly payment. But for some people still living in some kinds of accommodation, like supported or temporary accommodation, their rent is still paid through housing benefit. And this is mainly because of concerns around you know, some of the features of Universal Credit, things like monthly payments, direct payments, which you know, people thought might not work so well for people in supported accommodation. So for your most young people who aren't working, so their housing costs supported through housing benefit and their day to day living costs are supported through Universal Credit. And as long as they're getting some universal credit, they receive the full Housing Benefit Award, which means that their rent should be met in full. Even if someone's only receiving a small amount of Universal Credit because they are working. As long as they're getting some, they'll still get the full Housing Benefit award. However, what we see is that the problem arises once a young person earns enough to come off Universal Credit. So Universal Credit is tapered, so for every pound that's earned from work, your universal credit was reduced by 55. P, until the point were you earning enough to cover for Universal Credit entirely. So this is kind of key to the design and the ethos behind Universal Credit. So there's a smooth transition from benefits into employment, which is kind of unlike the previous benefit systems where there were quite a few steep cut off points are kind of drops in income depending on how much you're earning. So once a young person supported accommodation, and just over 468 pounds a month, or around 108 pounds a week, they come off Universal Credit entirely because their earnings taper they're awarded down to zero. This means working about 13 hours a week national minimum wage for a 21 year old. So you know not significant necessarily about work at all. The point at which does take us to zero for young people is lower as well, for young people in supported accommodation, because they're only receiving the standard allowance for Universal Credit. And because they're under 25. Their award is also significantly lower. So once this happens, they're no longer entitled to a full Housing Benefit award. And their entitlement is recalculated under the Housing Benefit rules, which are less generous and kind of less aiming around supporting people to move into work. And to kind of their benefits withdrawn at a higher rate. This means that young people earning over this 108 pounds a week actually start seeing a drop in their overall income. And they have to work about an additional nine or 10 hours to actually get back to that spot. So basically, what we see is kind of going above this point, actually young people worse off in some situations. So even though young person will always be earning more than if they aren't working at all. And there's little incentive really to work more than this 13 or so hours. So we've recently done some research we surveyed over 200, young people could experience homelessness across the UK. And we found that almost half of them said that they hadn't taken a job or hadn't looked more hours. And because of the impact it would have on their benefits. What we also see as well. And since when it's when young people do it, then above this amount, they can find themselves having to spend the majority of their earnings on their housing costs. Basically everything they're earning is going on to their rent. And in many cases, we see young people running into rent arrears and debts, particularly for young people with changing hours, such as those and flexible and zero hours contracts, you know, really find themselves falling foul of these rules, finding themselves worse off, because they're working more hours. They're also just to say that young people are also in supported accommodation or a disadvantage compared to those who aren't in supported accommodation. Because you know, these people aren't facing this higher type rate and housing benefit. So basically, we just think this is a really unfair and really complicated situation for young people. And just to say, as well, you know, these young people have been through so much, you know, still going through so much in terms of, you know, significant trauma and hardship means that, you know, every young person is different, and you know, many young people perhaps won't, you won't be in a position to be able to look for work, you know, but for those that can and those who want to work, many Western still need the extra supports can have access and sustain work and education opportunities. And, you know, we just think that the benefit system should be there to help these young people but instead, you know, kind of adds another barrier to a group of people who already face significant barriers to accessing employment. So I'll also talk a bit about the solutions but appreciate I've waffled on a bit here. So happy to throw it out to the to the room. I'd like to invite Shannon to speak about how it affected her for the system. Um, yeah. So as a young person that's gone through supported housing and I have been on housing benefits or just benefits in general. And from my personal experience, I felt like it was kind of like a trap you know, like you're either all the way in all the way out there's there's no in between if you want to work overfed, you know So hours, then it kind of feels like you're in it on by yourself, you know that there's no outside support. Or if I go the other way, and I'm on benefits, and I decide not to work them, I still don't have enough to support myself. I don't feel really that support it. There's no like, middle ground, you know, for young people, it's, it puts you in a tight spot, you know, no matter where you choose to go, you know, like, a lot of these young people are not there by choice, you know, they didn't put themselves in this circumstance. So to feel unsupported. Or even if a young person is motivated enough to go and want to work, they then feel like they can't, you know, because it's, it's not worth it, you know? So that's just my personal opinion and my experience. Thanks, Shannon. And this is Dan from DePaul here, I just just picking up on a few points you mentioned there, I think young people are homeless generally have been let down by people who should be looking out for them. We're talking about young people hear people who often are very independent, very streetwise, we've got a very sound head on their shoulders, but actually need a bit of support, like we all do. But you know, often for a young person to end up without home, they've been let down by public services, maybe schools, social workers, or actually, sometimes by their own friends and family. And this is just another case of young people who've been often being let down before being let down again, Universal Credit was bought in as other guests have said to make work pay. And to be fair to the government, in most cases it does. But for this group of young people who've already been through so much, if they're upping their hours, they're actually having to pay more than they're getting for the extra hours. So it just makes no sense. It wasn't designed to be like this. It's sort of a design flaw. I don't think anyone intended for this to happen. So I just really hope that Stephen and his parliamentary colleagues can work with government. So this is addressed. Yeah, well, I very much agree with Dan, that this does need to be addressed and changed. I wanted just to check with Billy about the background to this, because my recollection is that when Universal Credit was introduced, and that was over 10 years ago, now the idea was first announced, and all the papers were set out about it. And let's be fair, there were good reasons for doing it. Because the benefit system was very complicated. There were lots of different things and putting them all together in one benefit. Universal Credit did have some advantages. But I think the original idea was that supported accommodation was going to be paid for through Universal Credit as well. And unfortunately, it that didn't work. I remember lots of discussions a few years ago, with people responsible, for example, for refugees, and other kinds of supported accommodation, where it became clear that because of the way that Universal Credit has been set up, and it's a pretty inflexible setup, it just wouldn't work for supported accommodation. So eventually, the government made a concession. And they said, We will keep housing benefit for supported accommodation. And most people, I think, breathe a sigh of relief when they made that announcement. And I'd be interested to know from Billy, whether Centerpointe was pleased about that, that change or not, but it's clearly left us with this problem, that you've got a different type of rates in housing benefit from the one in Universal Credit. And it is clearly absurd, that people are going to end up getting a lower income for working more, that's diametrically the opposite of what Universal Credit is supposed to do. So am I am I right video about the kind of background to how this has come about? Yeah, I think you're right, Steven. So I think this debate was going back a few years. And when it was proposed that all housing including supported housing, and as well as things like your refuges, temporary accommodation will be moved into the universal credit system. But I think, you know, what is seen as some of the key features of Universal Credit, you know, the the monthly payments, payments directly to individuals, in most cases, there are real concerns, you know, this will lead to real issues, you know, with the kind of people having to manage that monthly payment, and kind of ensuring that those housing costs are paid themselves. As we've seen, in accommodation beyond supported accommodation. There has been real links kind of with, you know, the rollout of Universal Credit and increased rates of rent arrears and even homelessness. So I think because of that, it was decided that kind of best to kind of keep the system within housing benefit. But I think, you know, we ended up with that result where we kind of have these two systems running side by side, and they're kind of not really calibrated together. One of the things that is a real problem with Universal Credit, I think, is the fact that when you apply for Universal Credit, you have to wait five weeks for your first regular benefit payment. They will give you an advance earlier than that, but if they give you an advance you then got to pay it back over the following year and a lot of people start on Universal Credit And they're straightaway in debt. Because of that, and it's once you're on Universal Credit is really hard to get out of those debts. So I think the fact that the concession was made that in the case of supported accommodation, we'd stick with housing benefit. That was a welcome concession that the government made, but in a way, it might be better if they solved these problems with Universal Credit, rather than trying to stick with the old system. But one way or another, we clearly do need a solution. And it's something that that my select committee ought to be looking into. And slides come in there, Stephen as of yet, I mean, there, there are lots of problems of Universal Credit, not least a five week wait for first payments. And, again, it's another example of how something hasn't really been designed with young homeless people, actually lots of young people in mind. So we have young people in our project to partly because of the five week wait have 10 pounds a week as a food budget, which is extremely hard to live on. And your rice is completely absurd. And I do think the benefit system, especially when you're changing, it can get fiendishly complicated and complex. And this is a case of things not being thought through, which you could almost give the government a bit of slack from because it is just so complicated. But well, now we know we have been talking to the government about this. So they do know it is an issue, I think we're really looking for government to sort this out. And we'll go on to its, they would need to change a few things. But it's not going to be hugely expensive. And the impact this is having at the moment on young people, it's extreme, it's stopping people, young people getting on with their lives. And I would just say most, most young people in our projects are really desperate to work. Actually, if they are able to work, I'd much prefer to do so. But they're in a situation where if they do start working, once you add in travel costs, things like uniform to actually be worse often work because of this. So it really would like to the government address this quite quickly. It's also very much in the government's interests that they should address it because the big problem the government has got at the moment is lots of unfilled vacancies, so that the government desperately needs to find ways of encouraging people to take up the vacancies that are available. Clearly, there are lots of young people who, as you say, are only too eager to work, if they're given a reasonable chance. I'd agree with that. And I just want to make the point that, you know, if we're wanting young people to go into work, we need job security, zero contracts, just horrendous. And, and it's really scary for people, my experience is a bit different. I'm on disability benefits due to really poor mental health. So I haven't been stung with Universal Credit yet. I'm not looking forward to that at all. What worries me is say if I did get into work, like all my housing benefit will be taken off me my you know, disability benefit will be taken off the ESA will be taken off me and I'd be back to square one. But if I have a mental health breakdown, I'll have to reapply for everything whilst also losing my house in the process, because I wouldn't be able to afford the rent. I think a lot of people expect that you've got family to fall back on, or you know, savings to fall back on. But the reality is on benefits, you have no savings, you have no choice, it's very much survival. And I just like to make the point as well about not just work, but University, I'd love to go to university, but housing benefit would then not cover my rent. I'm 28 now and I've run our house and moved out of accommodation, but I feel that I'm just stuck in this position where there's no real help for me to get into work or to try and you know better myself and you know, young people have aspirations, and I know there's job vacancies that need to be filled. But this you still have to take into account that you know, young people don't just want to work in Poundland or workers, a carer when the pain is so poor, and what if they want to do something else? So I think, you know, rather than stigmatise a whole group of young people just because we're homeless, and we're on benefits doesn't mean that we don't have aspirations and ambition. And I just want to pass on to Tom, if you got any comments. Hi, thanks for that, Catherine. I think he made some really good points there. And I was talking to one of my young people, they might very similar points in terms of work and sort of mental health. And they said that having a job would get me into a better routine with my sleep, and provide me with the structure I need to better regulate my mental health. I just always wanted to make another point, in terms of what we're talking about housing costs and Universal Credit is one of the issues that the housing costs are kept very, very low, especially for young people. The housing cost element of Universal Credit would never begin to reach that what the actual cost is, I think I can shall the say. Long term goals on apprenticeship and no four pound 50 at the time And I was promised that my housing benefit would have been paid, and I'd still receive some. And because I was working away, during my apprenticeship, all of it got cancelled in every informing suppliers. When I came home, I'd lost everything because I was earning a wage. And because the amount of hours I was doing just to make up a livable wage, where I could afford to, like, feed myself each month, I was doing 40 hours a week, but they didn't seem as like vulnerable still, even I was came from respite accommodation to try and get into the working life. And it'd be good to see what Shannon has to say about all of this interviews, I was listening to us guys points. And my point is very similar to what you guys have to say, as a young person, I actually applied to go to uni, I actually got accepted into uni. But at the last minute, I was told that I wouldn't be able to go, and if I was, if I wanted to go, then I would have to move out of supported accommodation, which I wouldn't have been able to afford the rent, and I wouldn't have been given like any benefits either. So I really do understand, and I can relate to a lot of young people feeling like, well, then what's the point, if I can't do what I want to do, and I can only do like, the very minimum, you know, it's very, I feel like it, it does cut every young person, you know, and it can affect mental health and just being like, motivated to get through the day, you know, because as a young person has lived off benefits, you know, living day to day without any sort of goal or anything to work towards, you know, a kind of a young person very negatively. So I just like I just agree with these guys, what you have to say, because I've you know, I've experienced it, both sides, even working, I did an apprenticeship instead. Because that's the only way I could actually do something whilst living in supported housing. I think there's a sort of a broader point here emerging from young people who've lived it that in lots of ways support and accommodation is a little bit. There are a lot I guess there are lots of problems with it really annoying to poor provide supported accommodation. And we're very aware that it's not a perfect system. I mean, the good news is the government is going to is I think, looking at what it can do to improve supported accommodation. But I think we can sit clearly see from this discussion, that there's lots that we need to look at in terms of how supported accommodation can actually help young people progress in their lives. Because it does seem to me that in some ways, the system's doing the opposite, which obviously is isn't good for anyone. Dan, it's been so true about what you've been saying. Tom, would you like to pick up? Thank you, as you were speaking about the experiences of Ben, it's called housing and trying to work it just again, when I was speaking to one of my young people earlier. And the quiet that they gave me was, the system tells you to work. But then it makes it counterproductive to work if you're in support housing, because if you lose your housing costs, it's just impossible to make the rent and an entry level job. Do you know what I mean? So this is the person who really wants to work, but just feels as everybody else is kind of indicated, kind of trapped by the system. I really we've every what they've been saying because it's a lived experience from not just from the young people, the people that are tackling these issues with the spider combination being supportworks, and stuff like that. While everybody has been listening to these how we had any thoughts around how we could tackle these on start making the change. I want to jump Stephen Tim's. Thanks, Dan, I wanted to pick up the point that Catherine made about zero hours contracts, because that's one of the issues that young people face at the moment. And I think the gig economy is going to become a bigger issue in the future, even more than it is now. So one of the things my select committee has recommended is that the government needs to introduce a new employment bill so that the rights of people working in the gig economy are clear, because at the moment, they're not at all clear. Recently, Uber has lost a big court case. And in the on the back of that they've entered into a negotiation and reached an agreement with the GMB trade union. And for the first time people working for Uber now get holiday pay, they get a guaranteed minimum wage and other benefits which everyone else takes for granted. But it's kind of being left for individual employers and groups of workers to slug it out if necessary. In the courts, it shouldn't be like that it should be spelled out in law, that if you're working in the gig economy, you have the following rights that you can be absolutely confident of. And if they did that, I think young people and others would be more confident about taking up some of the roles that are available. Does anybody have any thoughts about what Steven was saying? or have any ideas around industry that the gig economy is a big thing? I want to pass on to Bill Hart and I want to put you on the spot. I agree completely. I think what we've seen at centre point is you know, young people working in the gig economy having those fluctuating hours. I think a it's just gonna be really confusing to work out what is that? That sweet spot about how How much they can add each week and you know, not kind of find themselves running into rent arrears having to, you know, really start contributing towards their housing costs. Yeah, increasing kind of job security and quality in that sector as well. We're also really, really benefit young people. But I don't know if it's useful for me to talk a bit about some solutions that we've previously we'd kind of discussed that centre point, I mean, one solution would be to kind of look at the entire supported housing sector, from the beginning and kind of, you know, overhaul it to kind of ensure it is working most effectively. And I think that's definitely one option. But now, we will be looking at some I think quick fixes, we think that could work within the existing benefit system really kind of helped to address a speak these for young people. So the first of those be to look at Universal Credit. And it kind of reintroduce what's called a work allowance to the Universal Credit. So for certain groups of people on Universal Credit, such as those with health conditions, or caring responsibilities, I get this thing called a work allowance, which means they can earn a bit more before their Universal Credit award is reduced. And this is kind of has the objective of supporting people that might find it harder to access employment of into work, when we think you know, young people in support, accommodation definitely kind of fit into a category of people that need that support. So we think that introducing a work allowance will kind of allow you to earn more before the other entitlements were affected. And then the other option we looked at could we be would be through tweaks to housing benefits to the old system. First, it would be to reduce the taper rate. So the current taper rate within housing benefit is much higher than under Universal Credit, which is part of the reason why there's such a steep cutoff point when a young person who reflexively moves from one system on to the other. So you think kind of reducing the tape rate in line with Universal Credit, we help to smooth out that transition, but also increasing what's called the applicable amount similarly, would have the impact of allowing a young person to earn a bit more before their entitlements are affected, and ready to kind of smooth it out. There is no kind of steep cuts off point between Universal Credit and housing benefit. And young people aren't kind of faced with that situation of actually losing money, because they're working more. I agree completely with what Billy said, I think one idea would be to just get rid of housing benefit in supported accommodation, put everything into Universal Credit, bizarrely for something that's new and Universal Credit isn't quite responsive enough. So we do get young people staying in our supported accommodation for a few weeks at a time, maybe moving out during the initial five week wait, which can make things incredibly complicated for everyone involved? I think that he's right there, I think the answer is with housing benefit. This is affecting 1000s of people who've already had a lot of knocks in their life every year, we think it probably could be fixed, Billy might know better numbers than I do. But we're looking at maybe one 2 million pounds a year, this would cost 2 million pounds here is a lot of money. But when we look at the impact this could have on 1000s of people's young lives, it's really not that much. It's a sort of thing that in central government departments wouldn't be hugely difficult to do, it just takes a little bit of political well, just to quickly come back on that dance. So as part of some recent research, we did looking at young people's experiences. The other benefit system, which is our peer research project, with some of the some of the people on this call kind of really got involved with, I spoke to zero consulting, who were an independent economics agency to kind of look at how much it would cost to bring these, these reforms into the benefit system. And what we found is that actually be kind of a net positive when taking into account the kind of the additional benefits from young people moving into work. So they're kind of additional taxes inclined to support that wouldn't need from wider public services. So we found that kind of to reinstate the work about then Universal Credit, this could lead to an annual net impact of over kind of 8 million pounds a year positive to the government. And then similarly, kind of increasing the applicable amount been housing benefit would decrease would increase government revenues by 2 million. So it's definitely no real advantage to kind of help young people move into work. And we've really managed to know not just support those young people themselves, but really good positives to wider society. On us kufrin Do you feel these solutions would work so far? Yeah, definitely agree with everything that's been said. I think it's very difficult to kind of get it, I suppose. I think with the university thing, I think maybe if you are living in supported housing, or you are leaving care or something like that, there should be a bit of a package to surround you to support you to maintain your housing benefit. Because obviously, you come in from a disadvantage anyway. I know there's maintenance grants and stuff like that, but maybe we could be looking at, you know, if you went from living independently on a very low income, and more chances and opportunities for education and training. Not gonna follow this. Yes, I was going to ask Billy, if if you could send me you know, on paper, the the ideas that you've described, it sounds like very promising ideas to me, and also the research that you've had undertaken as well, because the select committee is going to be looking at It's the government's plan for jobs, as they call it in this coming year, and what's going on in the labour market. And the issues that we've talked about in this discussion, I think could be an important element in that, because the whole idea is to try and make sure that everybody can get into work. And here, there's a serious obstacle, which ought not to be there. So if you were able to send me that, I'd be very keen to have a look at it and either get the whole committee to have a look at it. Or another possibility would be for me to write to the minister as chair of the Select Committee and say, Look, there's a problem here, and here are some ideas for what you could do about it. What do you think and see what they say? Yeah, we'd be more than happy to send everything over any kind of your further evidence or, you know, meetings be useful. I think, me and the kind of the tip here research, and everyone's more than happy to support how we can help manage your view on this, I see where your hand up. And yeah, just to mention, when I was talking about this issue with the young person this morning, their suggestion was actually a taper on the housing benefit. And that guess was, it would probably save the government money as well. So it seems like a bit of a no brainer. I definitely agree with the points that you guys have made us any sort of support that can be given to young people in supported housing would be better than non you know, because young people I feel like for my own experience, when I was living through it, i not i didn't feel really unsupported. But I felt like there was no hope, you know, that there was no one really listening. And that also an understanding what we were going through. So if there's plans in place, and it just it does really help the podcast from centre by young people, for all people. To thank everyone, for joining today, I think it's been a really, really good and vital discussion that we need to be having. I think we need to be talking a lot more about it, and especially if we can get some impacts on the back of it. And these are what these podcasts are about, really for young people really really voicing their opinions and voicing the struggles that they face, which can be hidden quite a lot of the time. We talk about the hidden homeless, but you know, we are living it, we're experiencing it. And we are trying to make a change. So I just want to really, really thank everyone for taking the time today and being here. It's been amazing. If you want more information about Universal Credit, then visit our blog at www.centerpointe.org/blog. Don't forget Centerpoint offers free advice via the centerpoint helpline to anyone aged 16 to 25. who is homeless or at risk of homelessness. Call us free on Oh 808-800-0661 We're open Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. You can also leave us a message on our website at www.centerpointe.org.uk/youth homelessness slash get help now. The podcast from centre by young people for old people